Does God Believe in You?
I heard this concept from a friend (let's call him Harley) two nights ago. He said that at the Promise Keepers conference, there was a video from www.nooma.com that told the story of Peter walking on the water to Jesus. Essentially the guy said that everyone thinks that Peter had doubts in Jesus, but this guy said that the account in Matthew 14 doesn't actually say that Jesus asked Peter why he lost faith in Christ, he just asks why he had doubt. So this guy thought that maybe our typical interpretation of that story is wrong and that Jesus really was asking Peter why he had doubt about his own ability to walk on water. His point was that God Believes in You! I couldn't disagree more, and this is the outcome of the back and forth we had on the topic. Another friend (let's call him Google) jumped in as well. Here's the transcript. It started as a chat and went to e-mail.....
***BEGIN CHAT***
Harley:
http://www.nooma.com/uploaded/ProductMedia/2005/December/d91e927f-39db-4fa4-9604-d2b7b6765368.pdfHarley: pg 15
Harley: the whole deal was in jewish culture, you want to be just like your rabbi
that is the entire point
so peter walked on water to "be like" his rabbi
but then started to doubt that he could be like him
that was the story
peter doubted that he could do what his raabi was doing
which is why he fell
me: God believes in us?
I'm not sure how I feel about that
Harley: why?
me: because God knows we can do NOTHING on our own without Him
that we can never even come close to being like Him
without Him and His forgiveness
so really God believes in Himself if anything
"I can do all things THROUGH CHRIST who strengthens me."
Harley: so cant god believe in us that we have teh power to accept and do things thru christ?
me: that's not believing in us!
that's believing in Christ and what He can do with us
John 15:5
Jesus says "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: FOR APART FROM ME YE CAN DO NOTHING."
so to me, that means God has zero belief in me on my own
Harley: so are you saying believing in yourself is bad?
me: depends, sounds like a slippery slope towards pride to me
I always credit everything to God and ZERO to my own credit
I have always taken that verse to heart
as soon as I believe in myself, it shows up as pride
you know, it's really just depends on what the real message is behind those taglines
if the point is that you can believe that you CAN pursue a Christlike walk in life, then yeah, I think you should at least believe that's possible
and that you can do that, but only because of God's grace, not because you're able to refrain from sin
and does God believe in us? No, I don't think so. I think He shows us His Grace and helps us along and doesn't let us just self destruct in our own evil desires and actions. Without his influence, we would have self destructed by now.
***END CHAT***
***AARON EMAIL TO GOOGLE AND HARLEY***
I gotta get to bed. Just wanted to see if "Google" agrees with me, or if he has another thought on this topic. I like to find things that we might not agree with, it keeps me thinking. :-)
***HARLEY'S RESPONSE***
http://www.rockies.net/~spirit/sermons/a-or02sn.php looked interesting
***AARON'S RESPONSE***
Here's my opinion on that sermon (nice use of Google.com, btw.) :-)
Besides him saying "God believes in you" a ton of times, there isn't really anything backing it up. He uses one verse: "It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up
the tribes of Jacob and to restore the survivors of Israel; I will
give you as a light to the nations."
And that pretty much is God saying I WILL GIVE YOU as a light. God is doing that, He's not "believing in us" to do it. That guy used some REALLY tricky wording, he'd put "I believe in you" RIGHT before and after a quote from Jesus. He also wrote this:
And yet, to our inadequacies and to our fears,
no matter how well hidden, or how up front they may,
the prophet says, Jesus says, God says, but one thing,
and he says it over and over again
"I believe in you."
That isn't a quote, that's putting words in Jesus and God's mouth. He even puts quotes around "I believe in you"!
:-) Sorry I'm attacking this guy, but it's a pretty blatant example of quoting something that isn't really there in my opinion. Reading that thing gave me visions of sitting in a Lutheran church. :-)
What do you think "Google", am I totally off on this one?
***HARLEY'S RESPONSE***
I think there is a lot of comfort found in that this may be a reciporacal relation ship. I trust in god, and likewise god trusts in me (you could add BECAUSE i have trust in him and believe). You could also make the argument that if the holy spirit has entered you as a result of acceptance, then the holy spirit is now your guiding principal and an inherent "part" of you, THEREFORE if god trusts in you hes really trusting partly in himself :-)
***GOOGLE'S RESPONSE***
You guys are amazing! A whole conversation, websites, and chat log while I slept....sweet!
Aaron, I think you are right on the money, from what scripture says. It never, never, never builds the case that we can do anything on our own, or to believe in 'self'. Romans 3 (read the whole chapter) is all about that very idea, "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." I like what you said about John 15:5.
Harley, you are sooo right that men find comfort in the idea of a reciprocal relationship, because it says, "I do hold some power". But reciprocal shouldn't be the word...God is not dependent on man. We have to die to self, pick up our cross, and follow Christ.
Thanks for including me,
"Google"
***MY RESPONSE***
So is God trusting me or is God trusting Himself (the Holy Spirit?) I'm worried this is getting into semantics, but I would be scared if God put any real trust in me. He might have hope in me that I will follow Him, but the only person God can put trust in, is in Himself. If I asked God how much faith He had that I would do something for Him, the answer would be zero. If I asked God how much faith He had that I could do something for Him with His help and power, it would be 100%. I think this seemingly harmless philosophy that God has faith in us or that God trusts us, can be dangerous if we unpack it and start to make God out to be counting on man for anything.
Do you know why we aren't tempted beyond what we can handle? Because God doesn't allow it. Not because we can do it on our own. Not because God trusts that we will follow His will and not fall into temptation, but because God doesn't allow temptation to come our way without providing an escape for us. 1 Corinthians 10:13 "No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. "
You know, I just read "Google's" response before finishing this one, and I think he has struck a chord with the "I do hold some power" comment. This seems to come full circle to the desire to have a will and control over where your life is headed without surrendering fully to God's will for our lives. Why are we so scared to give God full control? Probably because we know He'll take us out of our comfort zone and we're not willing to give everything up. It's the same excuse some people use not to become a Christian and give their lives up to Christ. Because they know it means giving up excessive drinking, fornication, lust, and other attractive sinful behaviours. In their worldview, it's just not worth it. Man is not inherently good like John Locke would argue. I'd agree with Thomas Hobbes that man is inherently evil. We are born into sin, and we'll turn our back on God and nail Him to the cross any chance we get in the absence of His grace and forgiveness. God doesn't believe in us. Like D said, He calls us to pick up our cross and follow after Him. We can only do that with His help and grace. He can't count on us to do it otherwise.
However, I DO agree that we should strive to be like our rabbi. Ephesians 4:14-16. "14so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love. " Romans 12 tells us to be transformed in our minds so that we think like God thinks. Has compassion like God has compassion. Desires truth and holiness like God desires truth and holiness. We should be like Christ.
Should Peter have been able to walk on water? Yes. Because of his own power? No. Because of Christ's power? Yes. He had little faith, he doubted. Was Christ disappointed that Peter doubted himself that he could walk on water? Absolutely not, I think that's absurd and really trying to find something that isn't there at all. I think Christ was disappointed that Peter doubted that Christ would protect him and allow him to walk on the water when He had clearly commanded him to do it. Peter took his eyes off of Christ. That is why he sank. Not because he started to doubt himself, but because he looked away from Christ, and started looking at the wind and doubt in Christ crept in, so he began to sink. Read the account from Matthew 14.
Matthew 14:28-33 - 28And Peter answered him, "Lord, if it is you, command me to come to you on the water." 29He said, "Come." So Peter got out of the boat and walked on the water and came to Jesus. 30But when he saw the wind,[ d] he was afraid, and beginning to sink he cried out, "Lord, save me." 31Jesus immediately reached out his hand and took hold of him, saying to him, "O you of little faith, why did you doubt?" 32And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased. 33And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."
This is great stuff, and if nothing else I've been challenged to realize even more that Philippians 4:13 is the theme of my life. Nothing I have is mine, nothing I have done is of my own abilities, all glory and honor goes to the one that created me and gives me the life, the talents and the blessings that I have today, and if He decides in His sovereign will that I should no longer have those things, that is His very right to take them away, and like Job I should continue to praise Him and realize that it is according to His will. Now I just pray that God doesn't find it necessary for me to practice what I preach. :-) Not really, but I have zero doubt that it would be a struggle and painful, but I truly submit to His will...
***GOOGLE'S RESPONSE***
And all the people said......"Amen".
***HARLEY'S RESPONSE***
See, this is one of those things that would define a new division of the church. In the end, it probobly doesnt matter, the only thing that matters is that you believe you are a sinner, cannot not be forgiven without the blood of JC, and accept his sacrafice.
Now, back to the trust issue, I do see that it can lead to self boasting, take away from god, etc, HOWEVER, put this spin on it
God Created Man
God cannot trust man
God cannot create a trustworthy being...is god somehow imperfect then?
in case this comes to a definition problem....
Definition of Trust - Firm reliance on the integrity, ability, or character of a person or thing.
Cannot god have belief in the ability of us to accept him? I would say he has a LOT of that, otherwise how are we saved if we dont have the ability to accept what JC did for us
Definition of Faith - Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance.
This whole thing doesnt assume god has "allegiance" in us I dont think, and nobody has said god has "faith" in us i dont believe.
***MY RESPONSE***
Ok, as we discussed briefly in person, I definitely don't think this would cause a division in the church. I think there is a right and a wrong answer here and we should be able to unpack this enough that someone is going to see that they are wrong and concede the point. :-) I agree that the most important thing is accepting Christ as your atonement for your sins, but I don't agree that it's the ONLY thing that matters. :-) There's more to it than only being saved. That's the beginning.
As for your line of reasoning:
God Created Man
God cannot trust man
God cannot create a trustworthy being...is god somehow imperfect then?
I have a problem with the third point. God cannot create a trustworthy being? Yes, He could have. He could have created us all as robots that would perfectly obey Him and not sin. However, then we wouldn't have had the ability to love Him by CHOICE and the relationship wouldn't be any more significant than the relationship He has with, say, monkeys. God CAN create a trustworthy being. He just gave us free will by putting that tree in the garden where we could decide to continue to be perfect, or to sin. We all know what we chose and continue to choose every day.
You also said, "Cannot god have belief in the ability of us to accept him? I would say he has a LOT of that, otherwise how are we saved if we dont have the ability to accept what JC did for us."
So we have boiled down "God Trusts in you" or "God Believes in you" to "God believes you have the ability to accept him." I think these imply completely different things. God knows you have the ability to accept Him because He gave us that ability, uh, so He believes that what He gave us is sufficient. I don't think it's a matter of having a LOT of that. He KNOWS He gave us the ability to chose or reject Him. It's a matter of black and white. We have the ability because He gave it to us. That's it. Can God take away that ability? I definitely think so. How many times in scripture do we read that he hardened someone's heart? Pharaoh is the prime example. So is it really something that God gives us, not something we were able to create on our own. I think this is starting to really get away from what these guys are trying to preach when they say "God Believes in you." No He doesn't. This whole "believe in yourself" and "God believes in you" philosophy is such a slap in the face of God's gift and grace for us. Leave it to man to take credit for themselves or like to think that God believes in us, trusts in us, or needs us for anything. Not exactly my idea of surrendering.
Am I going too far on anything or am I missing a major point?
Let go. Let God.
Aaron
